Workbench Replacements

[miker1264]

This topic will cover Workbench Replacements such as Wanderer, Magellan, Scalos, Workbook and standalone file managers such as Dopus4 and FileMaster and AROS development in general associated with these programs.

[miker1264]

From a development perspective I really like the simplicity of Wanderer while at the same time I appreciate the full features approach of something like Scalos or Magellan. It's possible to have both and allow the user to make a choice.

Rather than add the more specialized features that "seem" to be missing to Wanderer I would do just the opposite. I would merely remove Name View since it makes Wanderer seem unfinished. It doesn't do much and it looks primitive. So then Wanderer will be free to do what it does best. It's a Graphical User Interface that deals only with Icons much like the original Amiga Workbench.

In some respects Workbook attempts to re-create the functionality of Wanderer on a smaller scale without using Zune. That's a good concept yet Workbook doesn't work. It's good that it doesn't use Zune. I don't like the word "Zune" mostly because it seems out of place and it gives erroneous results when doing a web search. Microsoft has appropriated the name for some reason and it also is an old music player from the 1990's. At one point Apollo Team was working on updating Workbook to use with AROS 68k.

 Also I don't like the complicated nature of MUI or Zune as far as programming. I much prefer the Classic Amiga programming approach such as with MultiView (no MUI or Zune). Magellan and maybe Scalos also use the Classic Amiga approach to programming which can at first seem very overwhelming and less structured than MUI or Zune. But it is also much more flexible and easily extensible.

So Wanderer will come in two parts and more if you want additional menus or icon docks, etc. It should consist of Wanderer itself and the text based file manager of choice such as Dopus4 or FileMaster or something else. I have been working with FileMaster trying to update it to make it more stable and to combine all the various sources into one program to make it a combined source update. Lots of work.  :'(

From a conceptual perspective from time to time I wonder if it's worth the effort to develop a totally new Workbench Replacement based on the full features of Magellan that works on all flavors of AROS in a more compatible way. What would we call it? Voyager maybe since it's based on Magellan but not to be confused with the web browser or the spacecraft.   

So what do I use personally? When Magellan is available I use that. When it isn't I use Wanderer but mostly I use shell commands to do whatever I need. I have used FileMaster.

The best way forward would be to give the user a choice between the simplicity of Wanderer or the more specialized features of something like Scalos. Why Scalos and not Magellan? Magellan can't be compiled easily. It requires a dedicated team of developers and it seems to be too large and overly complex as far as source code. Scalos seems much easier to work with though it needs much more work.

[miker1264]

As far as AROS development in general there is something that I feel we really need.

We need a basic text editor with syntax highlighting that works inside AROS. I've looked at JanoEditor and it seems very efficient at plain text. One of my favorite text editors for Amiga was and still is TurboText. JanoEditor (or just Editor) can fill that role easily. But what about something more?

I've also looked at Annotate to give some ideas about a simple text editor. I especially like the xml code definition modules that use pen colors for various keywords. Scintilla gives a more complex example of syntax highlighting but the more simplistic approach may work well for AROS.

I would start with the basic text editor that would be completely written in C wth a minimum number of code files to make updates easier. Once basic text editing works then add syntax highlighting and some other features.

The basic text editor with syntax highlighting would eventually become part of an integrated IDE combined with gcc that works inside AROS. What would we call it? "A.ROS B.asic Synt.ax H.ighlighting  Editor" (Absynthe) or "Experimental Simple Colorized Intuition-based Text Editor" (Ex-Scite).  I kinda like the last one. 

[amigamia]

As far as AROS development in general there is something that I feel we really need.

We need a basic text editor with syntax highlighting that works inside AROS. I've looked at JanoEditor and it seems very efficient at plain text. One of my favorite text editors for Amiga was and still is TurboText. JanoEditor (or just Editor) can fill that role easily. But what about something more?

I've also looked at Annotate to give some ideas about a simple text editor. I especially like the xml code definition modules that use pen colors for various keywords. Scintilla gives a more complex example of syntax highlighting but the more simplistic approach may work well for AROS.

The basic text editor with syntax highlighting would eventually become part of an integrated IDE combined with gcc that works inside AROS. What would we call it? "A.ROS B.asic Synt.ax H.ighlighting  Editor" (Absynthe) or "Experimental Simple Colorized Intuition-based Text Editor" (Ex-Scite).  I kinda like the last one. 

Although it hasn't been updated in ages, it is still a very good text editor with decent syntax highlighting (EdiSyn by ALB42) https://blog.alb42.de/programs/edisyn/

[miker1264]

As far as AROS development in general there is something that I feel we really need.

We need a basic text editor with syntax highlighting that works inside AROS. I've looked at JanoEditor and it seems very efficient at plain text. One of my favorite text editors for Amiga was and still is TurboText. JanoEditor (or just Editor) can fill that role easily. But what about something more?

I've also looked at Annotate to give some ideas about a simple text editor. I especially like the xml code definition modules that use pen colors for various keywords. Scintilla gives a more complex example of syntax highlighting but the more simplistic approach may work well for AROS.

The basic text editor with syntax highlighting would eventually become part of an integrated IDE combined with gcc that works inside AROS. What would we call it? "A.ROS B.asic Synt.ax H.ighlighting  Editor" (Absynthe) or "Experimental Simple Colorized Intuition-based Text Editor" (Ex-Scite).  I kinda like the last one. 

Although it hasn't been updated in ages, it is still a very good text editor with decent syntax highlighting (EdiSyn by ALB42) https://blog.alb42.de/programs/edisyn/

Thanks. EdiSyn looks like it has all the basic features I need such as go to line number, show line numbers, search functions and of course syntax highlighting. Those are the only features that I use routinely in VSCode Editor. I like to use SciTE as well for Windows and Linux but not as much.

For the visual style I prefer the looks of DevCPP. The white background makes it easier to see the text with syntax highlighting so being able to change the color is a nice feature.

I will give EdiSyn a try.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

miker, "EdiSy" is the best choice for a developer, but it easily crashes if you use some functions such for example try to do a "Search" in the source file.

Among other things "EdiSy" doesn't show the text when you try to write something in the Search (reported to ALB)

On AROS One x86 "EdiSy" is pre-set a button on Dopus4, one click is enough to open a document with
"EdiSy."

On AROS One x86 as a Text Editor there would also be the excellent "NoWinED," the only Editor that allows you to directly drag a file onto the Editor.

"NoWinED" has only one problem, when you run it the text under the menu icons have a black bar, this vanishes if you enlarge or shrink the GUI, this could be an AROS problem, it also happens with other Applications.

On AROS One x86 there is also "Ciannamon Write" but it is not the best solution for source files.

About Wanderer, I would like to point out that it does not only deal with Icons, Wander Preferences handles Themes, Backgrounds, Fonts (distances and type), Transparencies, icon shift modes, Navigation method, automatic arrangement of windows and icons, and other little things, all functions things that didn't exist on Workench but also on Replacements

[miker1264]

On AROS One x86 as a Text Editor there would also be the excellent "NoWinED," the only Editor that allows you to directly drag a file onto the Editor.

"NoWinED" has only one problem, when you run it the text under the menu icons have a black bar, this vanishes if you enlarge or shrink the GUI, this could be an AROS problem, it also happens with other Applications.

On AROS One x86 there is also "Ciannamon Write" but it is not the best solution for source files.

About Wanderer, I would like to point out that it does not only deal with Icons, Wander Preferences handles Themes, Backgrounds, Fonts (distances and type), Transparencies, icon shift modes, Navigation method, automatic arrangement of windows and icons, and other little things, all functions things that didn't exist on Workench but also on Replacements

NoWinEd sounds interesting. I will try it to see what features it has. Certainly drag-n-drop on the editor window to open a text file is a nice feature. Open in hexadecimal view is also a nice feature for viewing all other file types. Sometimes I use Notepad to open binary files to search for ASCII text. Having the ability to see true hex values would make things easier. Being able to search for ASCII strings or Hex strings like HxD is better.

Is it better to develop a text editor with syntax highlighting to be integrated into a complete IDE for use inside AROS or keep them separate giving the user more choices?

That way if they are separate we could use the editor of choice to edit source files inside AROS or on another OS then use something like Murks IDE to compile and run it. If Murks were updated with more development features it might become a good IDE for compiling and testing code, better than it is. 

I believe deadwood has done some work updating Murks. Maybe I can do some testing with some source files in Murks to put together a wish list of features. Does Murks use project files like DevCPP to quickly load all the source files and can it use makefiles like the AROS cross-compilers aka Build System?

@AMIGASYSTEM

Where did you get the AfA sample about project? That looks a little nicer to test with than "Hello World" though that works. 

I have a few small source files also and some larger single source file apps to test compiling inside Murks IDE in AROS.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

I specify that NoWinEd does not support File Binary, that is why on Dopus4 there are "Read" integrated to Dopus4, ZapHod, Hex2.

Specifically what are you referring to "AfA sample about project" ? to that shown in the screenshot !

[miker1264]

I specify that NoWinEd does not support File Binary, that is why on Dopus4 there are "Read" integrated to Dopus4, ZapHod, Hex2.

Specifically what are you referring to "AfA sample about project" ? to that shown in the screenshot !

It was some sample project with a red boing ball about AfA OS.

As far as reading binary it isn't a necessity for a text editor. There are other ways to do that as you mentioned.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

It was some sample project with a red boing ball about AfA OS.

Could you attach a screenshot !

[miker1264]

It was some sample project with a red boing ball about AfA OS.

Could you attach a screenshot !

This one.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

This is the same Logo that I posted above of AROS One, in prartica it is a project of "Amiga_C_MUI_Examples
 09" OS3 version, where for testing I modified the source in both the AROS and OS3 versions:

OS3:
http://aminet.net/package/dev/mui/Amiga_C_MUI_Examples

AROS:
http://archives.aros-exec.org/?function=showfile&file=development/example/mui_examples.i386-aros.zip

[miker1264]

This is the same Logo that I posted above of AROS One, in prartica it is a project of "Amiga_C_MUI_Examples
 09" OS3 version, where for testing I modified the source in both the AROS and OS3 versions:

OS3:
http://aminet.net/package/dev/mui/Amiga_C_MUI_Examples

AROS:
http://archives.aros-exec.org/?function=showfile&file=development/example/mui_examples.i386-aros.zip

Thanks. I will try that. 

How did you get gcc to work in a shell in Amiga OS 3.9?

[cdimauro]

From a development perspective I really like the simplicity of Wanderer while at the same time I appreciate the full features approach of something like Scalos or Magellan. It's possible to have both and allow the user to make a choice.

Rather than add the more specialized features that "seem" to be missing to Wanderer I would do just the opposite.

I agree: it's the only reasonable solution. Adding all missing features to Wanderer will make the life too much complicated.

I would merely remove Name View since it makes Wanderer seem unfinished. It doesn't do much and it looks primitive. So then Wanderer will be free to do what it does best. It's a Graphical User Interface that deals only with Icons much like the original Amiga Workbench.

Fine as well for this.

In some respects Workbook attempts to re-create the functionality of Wanderer on a smaller scale without using Zune. That's a good concept yet Workbook doesn't work. It's good that it doesn't use Zune. I don't like the word "Zune" mostly because it seems out of place and it gives erroneous results when doing a web search. Microsoft has appropriated the name for some reason and it also is an old music player from the 1990's. At one point Apollo Team was working on updating Workbook to use with AROS 68k.

 Also I don't like the complicated nature of MUI or Zune as far as programming. I much prefer the Classic Amiga programming approach such as with MultiView (no MUI or Zune). Magellan and maybe Scalos also use the Classic Amiga approach to programming which can at first seem very overwhelming and less structured than MUI or Zune. But it is also much more flexible and easily extensible.

The problem with MUI & Zune is the same general problem of all BOOPSI-based GUI applications: it's one of the worse OOP implementation. BOOPSI really sucks at simulating OOP using C-like languages AND it's absolutely inefficient (both memory and CPU/performance-wise).

Unfortunately it's very spread on the Amiga land, because it's part of the o.s..

On the other hand non-BOOPSI (AKA "classic") is much easier (that's what I've used on my tools, at the time) but extremely limited.

It's very difficult to take a decision. However if Scalos and/or Magellan are MUI/Zune-based, then there's no alternative that to use it.

So Wanderer will come in two parts and more if you want additional menus or icon docks, etc. It should consist of Wanderer itself and the text based file manager of choice such as Dopus4 or FileMaster or something else. I have been working with FileMaster trying to update it to make it more stable and to combine all the various sources into one program to make it a combined source update. Lots of work.  :'(

I only use DiskMaster (a veeeery old application ) for this. Never tried FileMaster, but if it's MUI/Zune-based then it'll be a pain to update it (as usual).

From a conceptual perspective from time to time I wonder if it's worth the effort to develop a totally new Workbench Replacement based on the full features of Magellan that works on all flavors of AROS in a more compatible way. What would we call it? Voyager maybe since it's based on Magellan but not to be confused with the web browser or the spacecraft.   

It's like reinventing the wheel and feature-wise it'll require A LOT of time. Not worth the very big effort...

So what do I use personally? When Magellan is available I use that. When it isn't I use Wanderer but mostly I use shell commands to do whatever I need. I have used FileMaster.

The best way forward would be to give the user a choice between the simplicity of Wanderer or the more specialized features of something like Scalos. Why Scalos and not Magellan? Magellan can't be compiled easily. It requires a dedicated team of developers and it seems to be too large and overly complex as far as source code. Scalos seems much easier to work with though it needs much more work.

Indeed. It looks like the best candidate. Some missing feature could be borrowed by Wanderer to make it a full replacement for the latter.

Honestly I wouldn't target the original machines or something like that: they are too much limited and this will become THE burden that limits the future Workbench Replacement.

[cdimauro]

As far as AROS development in general there is something that I feel we really need.

We need a basic text editor with syntax highlighting that works inside AROS. I've looked at JanoEditor and it seems very efficient at plain text. One of my favorite text editors for Amiga was and still is TurboText. JanoEditor (or just Editor) can fill that role easily. But what about something more?

I've also looked at Annotate to give some ideas about a simple text editor. I especially like the xml code definition modules that use pen colors for various keywords. Scintilla gives a more complex example of syntax highlighting but the more simplistic approach may work well for AROS.

The basic text editor with syntax highlighting would eventually become part of an integrated IDE combined with gcc that works inside AROS. What would we call it? "A.ROS B.asic Synt.ax H.ighlighting  Editor" (Absynthe) or "Experimental Simple Colorized Intuition-based Text Editor" (Ex-Scite).  I kinda like the last one. 

Although it hasn't been updated in ages, it is still a very good text editor with decent syntax highlighting (EdiSyn by ALB42) https://blog.alb42.de/programs/edisyn/

Thanks. EdiSyn looks like it has all the basic features I need such as go to line number, show line numbers, search functions and of course syntax highlighting. Those are the only features that I use routinely in VSCode Editor. I like to use SciTE as well for Windows and Linux but not as much.

For the visual style I prefer the looks of DevCPP. The white background makes it easier to see the text with syntax highlighting so being able to change the color is a nice feature.

I will give EdiSyn a try.

The problem with development is the usual one: having good tools that are comfortable and maximize productivity.

That's why the best way for this would be a cross-dev environment. You're already used to VSCode, which is one of the most flexible and productive IDE.

For the original machines there's a VSCode extensions that was added and used by several developers, that allows to build, compile, launch and debug Amiga o.s. (68K) applications: maybe something like that could be done for AROS development.
Some shared folder with virtual machines could be used to make the file exchanges much easier. Or an hosted AROS version, perhaps.

Just some ideas.