Emulation speed

[pixie]

Let start it with WinUAE's author, Toni Wilen own words:

Then it only fixes emulation problem or uses some different parts of emulator due to CPU architecture differences.

Emulators designed to be as fast as possible NEVER get faster by selecting "better" CPU! (Usually it is the opposite due to emulated CPU being more complex).

(Oddly enough long time ago I was told that there is no speed difference. Use of CSPPC CPU model in BPPC was my very first suggestion..)

You had said :

Again you are only speaking from theory, we are talking about WinUAE not a real Amiga, with the 030 no JIT on WinUAE you don't do anything with it if you have to run AROS or run Porting or Amiga RTG systems.

Which doesn't make much sense since if you use 060 without JIT you will see an hit on speed just the same.

Why do you think Emulation 060 exists?

 
Why does it exist?

The latest versions of WINUAE have had a big change, i can assure you that my AfA One without the 060 libraries, including the MMULib, does not have the same power and speed.

My experience tells me otherwise, perhaps you're using a bad setup?

Have you tried to emulate Amiga OS4 with a 020?

Emulating a PPC OS on a 68k processor, am I missing something here? Perhaps you're talking on how WinUAE uses an emulated Blizzard PPC board to be able to run AmigaOS 4 classic. Since no Blizzard PPC uses other CPU but 040/060 it would be clear why no other CPU would be supported, hint is not about speed or lack of it thereof...

Have you ever had an A4000/060, my A1200 with 020 and 030 were turtles in comparison!

I had a 060/PPC+bvision, so yes I have an idea of its speed, I also knows that the speed emulation goes way beyond what a 060 could achieve at the time, but as long as you choose a 32bit processor, even a 020 for that matter and JIT, it will always trounce a real 060... I have no idea why you keep bring real hardware for the discussion, time and time again.

Here we are OT, if you want to discuss this topic again, open a new thread

I wonder what stopped you from doing it in the first place...

[cdimauro]

QED / CVD. And maybe it's because of this:


"you clearly aren't able to read, understand, and neither you have technical knowledge about the things that you pretend to talk about."

[AMIGASYSTEM]

pixie an A1200/060 is not an A4000/060, they are 2 different computers and different is the power !

I like to see things in the field, the theories I leave to the theorists, what I can tell you that WinUAE with the 060 and with a system based on libraries and system software based 060 is much faster.

This is given by my experience "Practice" and I believe that after more than 30 years of AMiGA, and where I managed network and computer with hundreds of PCs and related software can be worth something, then everyone is free to think as he sees fit.

[magorium]

Huh ?

Did I somehow manage to take the wrong pills today (and landed in a twilight zone) ? What does emulation speed have to do with speed regarding real hardware ? I apologize if I missed some form of previous discussion.

The speed of emulating different CPU's can only have an impact when the asm instructions by any chance can be optimized for the host (during conversion) in a quicker/faster/better way. I doubt there is any difference between emulating a 000 vs 020 vs 060 as it is all jibbrish for the host in a similar manner. For emulating CPU''s with more complex instructions it would even be slower (if the host counterpart need more instructions for emulation).

Which doesn't make much sense since if you use 060 without JIT you will see an hit on speed just the same.

I do not know much about winuae internals but theoretically for emulation one could opt for respecting the processor's (original) clock speed (this is done for example for dos emulators). But since Amiga is difficult to emulate anyhows I doubt any restriction with regards to this are in place.

[pixie]

pixie an A1200/060 is not an A4000/060, they are 2 different computers and different is the power !

Are you for real? You lost me there...

[cdimauro]

@magoriom, don't worry: it's not you that took the wrong pills, but the one which wants to teach Toni Wilen how WinUAE works...


BTW, performance of an emulated 68060 can't be better than of other processors (specifically the 68030 which is the one implementing most of 680x0 instructions set) because the 060 lacks several important instructions which generates a fault when encountered during execution, requiring a "trap & emulate" approach which is very slow.
All this either with or without using a JIT.

[cdimauro]

pixie an A1200/060 is not an A4000/060, they are 2 different computers and different is the power !

Are you for real? You lost me there...

Welcome on board!

[pixie]

BTW, performance of an emulated 68060 can't be better than of other processors (specifically the 68030 which is the one implementing most of 680x0 instructions set) because the 060 lacks several important instructions which generates a fault when encountered during execution, requiring a "trap & emulate" approach which is very slow.
All this either with or without using a JIT.

Isn't it the actual reason why there's 060 libraries in the first place? To mitigate the lack of instructions?

[cdimauro]

BTW, performance of an emulated 68060 can't be better than of other processors (specifically the 68030 which is the one implementing most of 680x0 instructions set) because the 060 lacks several important instructions which generates a fault when encountered during execution, requiring a "trap & emulate" approach which is very slow.
All this either with or without using a JIT.

Isn't it the actual reason why there's 060 libraries in the first place? To mitigate the lack of instructions?

Exactly! They are needed to emulate the missing instructions.

There are also proper math libraries which are compiled specifically for 060, in order to avoid those missing instructions and use optimized code which is only using the available ones.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Which doesn't make much sense since if you use 060 without JIT you will see an hit on speed just the same.

I think you know little about WinUAE, if you try to run AROS 68k 060 without JIT, it will take you twice as long to start AROS, moreover everything will be slower, this is more than ascertained, i have always proved that my tests are always true.

I have almost all the Amiga models, my A4000/060 is infinitely faster than my A1200/030, whoever has an A4000/060 can confirm it.

Since you don't know well WinUAE well, my discussion ends here, I won't answer any more on this thread.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Which doesn't make much sense since if you use 060 without JIT you will see an hit on speed just the same.

I think you know little about WinUAE, if you try to run AROS 68k 060 without JIT, it will take you twice as long to start AROS, moreover everything will be slower, this is more than ascertained, i have always proved that my tests are always true.

I have almost all the Amiga models, my A4000/060 is infinitely faster than my A1200/030, whoever has an A4000/060 can confirm it.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Which doesn't make much sense since if you use 060 without JIT you will see an hit on speed just the same.

I created a video where all doubts can be clarified, in the video in the first part I started AROS 68k with 060+ JIT, in the second part I started AROS 68k with 060 without JIT.

from the video it is clear that without JIT AROS starts with double the time, pauses in opening the graphics of Wanderer, the folders open very slowly, practically it is almost unusable, this is practical not theory ... see video


https://drive.google.com/file/d/18Wr0n6tzRMxH8o4hmA0wL1RcSwuZjtXv/view?usp=sharing

[cdimauro]

Hopeless. I just quote myself and highlight the relevant parts:

QED / CVD. And maybe it's because of this:

"you clearly aren't able to read, understand, and neither you have technical knowledge about the things that you pretend to talk about."

[pixie]

Which doesn't make much sense since if you use 060 without JIT you will see an hit on speed just the same.

I think you know little about WinUAE, if you try to run AROS 68k 060 without JIT, it will take you twice as long to start AROS, moreover everything will be slower, this is more than ascertained, i have always proved that my tests are always true.

Which was exactly what I told you...

I have almost all the Amiga models, my A4000/060 is infinitely faster than my A1200/030, whoever has an A4000/060 can confirm it.

Since you don't know well WinUAE well, my discussion ends here, I won't answer any more on this thread.

Can you explain where did you brought 030 since I told you I had a 060/PPC combo.

[AMIGASYSTEM]

Which was exactly what I told you....

No (if the Italian translation is not the other way around) you wrote  "Which doesn't make much sense since if you use 060 without JIT you will see an hit on speed just the same" and this is not true, have you watched the video?, AROS 68k without JIT is unusable because it is too slow !!

Can you explain where did you brought 030 since I told you I had a 060/PPC combo.

I was not referring to the CPU but to the fact that between an A1200 and an A4000 there are differences, specifically an A1200/060 is not comparable to an A4000/060, as mentioned those who have had both like me can confirm it.


Let us close the debate here, so that people do not continue to misunderstand.