AROS World Exec

General => General Chat => Topic started by: G-linx on June 30, 2022, 11:01:54 AM

Title: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on June 30, 2022, 11:01:54 AM
Hi,

I was curious as to what realistic future options we have for native aros?

Update OWB (How many developer hours would it take to update owb?)
Share code/collaboration (read as pay) for morphOS x86 browser?
Update an Amiga browser for us to run in uae?

Regards to all
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on June 30, 2022, 01:00:55 PM
It is not known if there will be an update to Odyssey for those who always prefer the native solution :-\
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on June 30, 2022, 01:39:45 PM
however, there are some accessible resources currently :)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on June 30, 2022, 04:10:06 PM
Indeed, for that I'm thankful.
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: paolone on July 01, 2022, 02:16:54 AM
Indeed, for that I'm thankful.
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at


Deadwood alone can't be the answer for every AROS needs. We urge to find people with good will to help him.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: deadwood on July 01, 2022, 02:39:44 AM
Indeed, for that I'm thankful.
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at


Deadwood alone can't be the answer for every AROS needs. We urge to find people with good will to help him.

+1. Even if you can't program yourself, go out, spread the word and invite people who can and are capable.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: deadwood on July 01, 2022, 02:43:45 AM
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at

I'd say between 50 and 200 hours. The time is not the biggest constraint. WebKit code base is huge, easily equal to complete AROS code base and developer experience working with that code base is poor. You really need to have a lot of self-motivation to push through.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 05:33:11 AM
You are a fairly considerable job, currently I use Odyssey without problems, of course there are limitations on some sites but it is usable, I hope there are enough reasons for an update in the future, certainly there is a community behind Aros there are distributions and also quite enthusiasm :)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: AMIGASYSTEM on July 01, 2022, 06:14:39 AM
As Paolone says Updating OWB is a lot of work, deadwood is already very busy for the OS and System App.

For OWB we need to look for other developers willing to do this big job.

At the moment OWB, for what AROS needs still does a great job, Social and other similar Sites let's leave them to FireFox, Google Crome on Windows, Linux or MAC.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 06:48:17 AM
Odyssey is the future of Aros
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 01, 2022, 06:49:46 AM
WebKit code base is huge, easily equal to complete AROS code base

That certainly puts it in perspective for me. Thank you everyone for you thoughts
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 01, 2022, 07:05:39 AM
Indeed, for that I'm thankful.
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at


Deadwood alone can't be the answer for every AROS needs. We urge to find people with good will to help him.


This bothers me every time I see something like this.   As much work as Deadwood is doing which is great BTW.  He is not the only one doing work on AROS he's back-porting work from many other developers plus doing his own fixes.  As a matter of fact if you look at the main REPO you will see there is a limited amount of developers working on AROS at all right now.  As far as I know the main REPO has a total of 3 developers committing code right now.  So it would be quite easy to give them all credit for their continued work.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 07:14:28 AM
Yes you are right :)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 01, 2022, 07:14:49 AM
...deadwood is already very busy for the OS and System App

Indeed. I'm catching up on the past couple of months of deadwoods work. Absolutely no feature requests from me!
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 07:23:25 AM
yes you are only discussing @Glinx
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 07:24:56 AM
We as users could open a common fund to finance the development of who will do it do not know
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 01, 2022, 07:32:42 AM
We as users could open a common fund to finance the development of who will do it do not know

I wanted to do a general bug fixing fund years ago but it never caught on.   Deadwood years ago put together a papercuts project which was very helpful getting users involved with hunting bugs.


https://sourceforge.net/p/aros/papercuts/?page=1

Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 07:40:11 AM
I understood I did not know of your project to be allocated to Odyssey could be done now by involving everyone, certainly then you have to involve someone who does the job
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 07:43:25 AM
I'm not a mercenary I would like to do something useful as a user :)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 01, 2022, 07:56:32 AM
I understood I did not know of your project to be allocated to Odyssey could be done now by involving everyone, certainly then you have to involve someone who does the job

You're better off starting small to attract developers IMHO.  Get some developers working on small bugs get them interested in AROS period. 
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: AMIGASYSTEM on July 01, 2022, 08:00:07 AM
In fact, you have to catchprima sympathy for AROS, and above all have a stable system where you can raise the foundation, complex software will come later automatically when there is a good number of developers.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: deadwood on July 01, 2022, 08:01:28 AM

You're better off starting small to attract developers IMHO.  Get some developers working on small bugs get them interested in AROS period.

I support that approach. Papercuts are actually often good entry level bugs that do not need deep AROS knowledge but have fast ROI in form of user feedback and appreciation. I'm also happy to help introduce any new developers to AROS code base.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 08:05:23 AM
how should it be proceeded?
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 01, 2022, 08:07:45 AM
Indeed, for that I'm thankful.
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at


Deadwood alone can't be the answer for every AROS needs. We urge to find people with good will to help him.


This bothers me every time I see something like this.   As much work as Deadwood is doing which is great BTW.  He is not the only one doing work on AROS he's back-porting work from many other developers plus doing his own fixes.  As a matter of fact if you look at the main REPO you will see there is a limited amount of developers working on AROS at all right now.  As far as I know the main REPO has a total of 3 developers committing code right now.  So it would be quite easy to give them all credit for their continued work.

Absolutely correct :)



Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 01, 2022, 08:20:36 AM

You're better off starting small to attract developers IMHO.  Get some developers working on small bugs get them interested in AROS period.

I support that approach. Papercuts are actually often good entry level bugs that do not need deep AROS knowledge but have fast ROI in form of user feedback and appreciation. I'm also happy to help introduce any new developers to AROS code base.

The problem with the "general fund" is there's no rules for it an no one has a clue how to access the money for projects other than the original donors requesting their money be moved.   I had suggested a papercuts fund where we could designate say $20 per papercut or whatever to pay developers to fix bugs.   I think this would be a good way to get some developers to put their toes in AROS.   The problem is when I spoke with Andre last we really need to describe the fund in a very specific way for it to be used that way.   

We don't have a ton of users or even rich users but we certainly can afford to drop $5-10 ea a month into such a fund.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about.


https://www.power2people.org/funds/aros/ This is the "general" fund.   I wouldn't suggest donating to it I would suggest replacing it with one that can be used on a well defined papercut fund.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 01, 2022, 08:33:58 AM
how should it be proceeded?

Recruit Dan Wood for PR
We all sign up with a small monthly donation
Deadwood/other developer to allocate the paper cuts
with a small reward
Almost forgot.. Stephen Jones for his cunning business plan aptitude!

(The last time I spoke to Stephen was in a phone call 30 odd years ago when he was calling around selling extension keyboard cables for his checkpoint 1500 case!)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 08:38:02 AM
Okay I can donate 1000 euros, I am not rich but I have been using Aros for years and I do it with gratitude to everyone :)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 08:40:34 AM
I think you have to see what are the bugs to correct at the moment :-\
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 01, 2022, 08:41:12 AM
Okay I can donate 1000 euros, I am not rich but I have been using Aros for years and I do it with gratitude to everyone :)

Don't put the cart before the horse.  but that being said maybe it's time to start a new thread.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 01, 2022, 08:43:43 AM
I can't match salvo but I'm down for $200 now and C$20 a month
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 08:47:23 AM
Don't put the cart before the horse.  but that being said maybe it's time to start a new thread.

ok we open a new thread
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 01, 2022, 01:55:21 PM
I always hope in an Odyssey update, even if I don't miss access the sites that don't work at the moment
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: aurabin on July 01, 2022, 06:16:56 PM
I continue donating directly to kalamatee!
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 01, 2022, 06:26:09 PM
I continue donating directly to kalamatee!

Off topic!  (But it made me laugh  :) )
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 01, 2022, 06:31:32 PM
There's some healthy debate happening, lets hope we can donate our cash appropriately and move aros forward! :)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 01, 2022, 06:54:42 PM
I continue donating directly to kalamatee!

Off topic!  (But it made me laugh  :) )

I donated enough to make the sponsor list ;D
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: ASiegel on July 02, 2022, 04:03:42 AM
Share code/collaboration (read as pay) for morphOS x86 browser?
See here:
https://github.com/jacadcaps/webkitty/branches (https://github.com/jacadcaps/webkitty/branches)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 02, 2022, 05:53:08 AM
At the moment only Deadwood can upgrade is the only important programmer in activity as well as Kalamatee and Shultz
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 02, 2022, 05:57:59 AM
Share code/collaboration (read as pay) for morphOS x86 browser?
See here:
https://github.com/jacadcaps/webkitty/branches (https://github.com/jacadcaps/webkitty/branches)

@ASiegal
Hi, can you explain to me more about this please.
Is it x86 code?
Is it open source?
Is it a new project?

Thank you
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 02, 2022, 06:02:07 AM
At the moment only Deadwood can upgrade is the only important programmer in activity as well as Kalamatee and Shultz
Is this gentleman a new developer to x86 from MorphOS?
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: magorium on July 02, 2022, 06:12:41 AM
@ASiegal
Hi, can you explain to me more about this please.
You can figure that out yourself as well  :)

Quote
Is it x86 code?
It is is in source-code... so whatever processor you compile it for. see also: https://github.com/jacadcaps/webkitty/blob/master/PORTING.md

Quote
Is it open source?

see: https://github.com/jacadcaps/webkitty
Quote
Source code available under BSD license / other licenses where applicable. All of the MorphOS specific files are to be assumed BSD Licensed:

BSD License Copyright (C) 2020-2021 Jacek Piszczek. All rights reserved. Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

etc.

Quote
Is it a new project?
Webkit ? no not really. More important is if they keep it up to date... and you already saw that here: https://github.com/jacadcaps/webkitty/branches

Quote
Thank you
You're welcome... next time try to use your own browser  :P
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 02, 2022, 06:18:24 AM
Is this gentleman a new developer to x86 from MorphOS?

is an morphos user
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 02, 2022, 06:52:25 AM
Thank you magorium for your very detailed answer!
Sarcasm always makes me chuckle in this political correct/woke world :)

I was a newbie though now I see I've been promoted to a junior member (although ignorance is no excuse)

I was curious at as to ASiegals post and the point he was making by linking that page.

I read somewhere that morphos x86 browser was closed source and linked very closely to morphos code and perhaps not portable to aros.

Also, the branch referred to seems to be 3 days old (or have I missed something?)

So, is morph going open source and sharing code, or is this a new attempt at porting (avoiding copyright) by an independent developer?
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 02, 2022, 07:10:54 AM
Is this gentleman a new developer to x86 from MorphOS?

is an morphos user

Developer
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on July 02, 2022, 07:18:47 AM
ah sorry :)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: terminills on July 02, 2022, 08:25:16 AM
At the moment only Deadwood can upgrade is the only important programmer in activity as well as Kalamatee and Shultz
Is this gentleman a new developer to x86 from MorphOS?

You want to pay for a port contact him.   It's not cheap due to his time being of value.  however you would need to figure out maintenance costs etc or it will just end up stale again.   Another option would be for someone to mimic the ios WKWebView API to use IOS chromium with webkit.  None of which will be cheap.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 02, 2022, 09:03:05 AM
Thank you, I'll keep an eye on his progress
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: magorium on July 02, 2022, 09:03:17 AM
Thank you magorium for your very detailed answer!
You're more than welcome :-)

Quote
Sarcasm always makes me chuckle in this political correct/woke world :)
Nice to see you noticed that...

Indeed PC/Woke, not really my thing (actually a waste of time imho)

Quote
I was a newbie though now I see I've been promoted to a junior member (although ignorance is no excuse)
Congratz, and to bring it back to IRL i can only guesstimate what your experience actually is.

It might be you are unfamiliar with software development an/or platforms such as github/gitlab etc or in a more general sense of not being computer tech savvy when it comes to details (don't worry you are in good company because f.i. i know next to nothing about it myself)

Quote
I was curious at as to ASiegals post and the point he was making by linking that page.
Mr Siegel has everything to win (his good name/reputation) with providing a funding platform that can be used to raise funds to cover the costs (or reward the efforts) of a developer porting that piece of source-code so that it is able to produce some meaningful executable for another (yet unsupported) platform  ;)

Quote
I read somewhere that morphos x86 browser was closed source and linked very closely to morphos code and perhaps not portable to aros.
Fab's odyssee for example ? There is more happening between the sheets then you might perhaps think (that is how offspring comes to be) ;-)

Quote
Also, the branch referred to seems to be 3 days old (or have I missed something?)
You did not seem to have missed anything there and are spot on. The repository seems to have quite some action.

Quote
So, is morph going open source and sharing code, or is this a new attempt at porting (avoiding copyright) by an independent developer?
I'm unable to answer that question simply because i do not know the answer to it.... I've been out of the loop for quite some time. Best things to advice is to ask people directly. Even though most of them are very busy, genuine questions are usually appreciated (unless there is some hush hush signing crap involved).


But, i can make an educated guess in that porting something like that is a tremendous amount of work and requires quite a bit of labour so doing it this way allows for other people to join in on the fun (not that we see that happen often but, it does happen on occasion).


And, i do apologise in case i offended you. It's just that i'm a bit grumpy t'day and should not take that out on others that are just passing by....  especially when never met before.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: G-linx on July 02, 2022, 09:21:29 AM
Great info, thank you!

..I'm far to old and thick skinned to be offended by some good ol' honest banter, no offence taken whatsoever

..your still on my Christmas telegram list ;)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Samurai_Crow on July 02, 2022, 11:17:46 PM
As a MorphOS user, myself, I can attest that Jacek has done top-notch work on the Wayfarer browser.  The fact that it's got a 2-clause BSD license makes it even more useful yet as open-source!
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on September 23, 2022, 08:23:07 AM
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at

I'd say between 50 and 200 hours. The time is not the biggest constraint. WebKit code base is huge, easily equal to complete AROS code base and developer experience working with that code base is poor. You really need to have a lot of self-motivation to push through.

Deadwood when you finish axruntime there is the possibility that you can work in Odyssey :-\
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: deadwood on September 25, 2022, 11:59:06 PM
Any ideas how many developer hours it would take to update Odyssey? Perhaps that's a question only deadwood could guess at

I'd say between 50 and 200 hours. The time is not the biggest constraint. WebKit code base is huge, easily equal to complete AROS code base and developer experience working with that code base is poor. You really need to have a lot of self-motivation to push through.

Deadwood when you finish axruntime there is the possibility that you can work in Odyssey :-\

I don't see this happening in the next year or two.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on September 26, 2022, 12:18:02 AM
thanks I don't add anything else because you are doing a lot for us
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: serk118uk on September 27, 2022, 09:55:18 AM
I still use old OWB for youtube and still works, why newer OWB has that disabled
(https://iili.io/stJrqN.md.png)
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on September 27, 2022, 10:28:02 AM
Yes, the version included on Icaros Desktop the html5 player do not working
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on September 27, 2022, 10:30:01 AM
Also i use the old verson and I replaced the executable with the 1.25-11 version and renewed the certificates
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: AMIGASYSTEM on September 27, 2022, 11:29:34 AM
I still use old OWB for youtube and still works, why newer OWB has that disabled


Yes OWB for what AROS needs still works fine including Multimedia.

Serk, I noticed you posted on Aros Archive arZip v0.1, I on AROS One have arZip v0.2, what is the latest?
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: serk118uk on September 27, 2022, 02:32:22 PM
@AMIGASYSTEM
Quote
Serk, I noticed you posted on Aros Archive arZip v0.1, I on AROS One have arZip v0.2, what is the latest?

I needed to upload arzip soryy i upload the wrong version ,  AMIGASYSTEM can you please upload arZIP 0.2 to Aros-archives since i dont have the readme or readme.pdf for the arZIP 0.2  thanks.
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: AMIGASYSTEM on September 27, 2022, 05:40:01 PM
serk, in my arZIP 0.2 folder the readme.pdf file is the old one from version 0.1 ! would need to find the new readme, where can I look for it?
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: serk118uk on September 28, 2022, 03:09:41 AM
serk, in my arZIP 0.2 folder the readme.pdf file is the old one from version 0.1 ! would need to find the new readme, where can I look for it?

Don't worry AMIGASYSTEM I will upload , actual readme for v 0.2 is lost with my old HD so I wouldn't know changes or fixes on v 0.2 but I will upload with new readme file for 0.2.

Thank you..
Title: Re: Realistic web browser options
Post by: Amiwell on October 01, 2022, 06:25:13 AM
Deadwood would be a nice step forward if there can be an Odyssey update for next year we know you're very busy and you do a lot for our community thank you :'(